An Excerpt from the Goraknath/Sitanath dialog

This text is drawn from a much longer, partially channeled dialog between two Naths and Goraknath.
 

(C) Shivanath 2005

[excerpt begins]

Shivanath : What I'm wondering is if the ass kicking in any way, shape or form correlates to expanded consciousness or enlightenment
Shivanath : or if it's more to do with equipping people to make changes in manifest reality by spiritual means
Shivanath : i.e. purification to wield power
Sitanath  : could be.
Shivanath : vs. purification to get out of this mess.
Shivanath : well, you know...
Shivanath : Could Amma just zap somebody: "you, you'll become happy now. You'll stay happy. You'll untangle your karmas and become enlightened, but every step will be pleasant and joyful."
Shivanath : She's God...
Shivanath : so...
Shivanath : I have to assume the answer is Yes.
Shivanath : And it would seem easier that way...
  [02:20]
Sitanath  : that doesn't seem especially likely....
Sitanath  : you make it sound like She'd be putting someone under a spell.....or the reverse.
Shivanath : "reversal of reality is the job of maya. reversal of the reversal is the job of the guru." - Ganesh Baba
Shivanath : I'm literally asking, if (as we know) she can take a little pot of jam and make it feed 500
Shivanath : why doesn't she just immediately transform all of her devotee's karmas or instantly free them from all illusion?
Shivanath : Clearly there's some kind of constraint.... it doesn't seem to work, or ever to have worked...
Shivanath : But, whatever that constraint is, it's becoming important
Sitanath  : She's said so many times that there are some karmas that can be taken away, some that can be partially mitigated, and some that we just have to endure.
Shivanath : right.
Sitanath  : becoming important?
Shivanath : but *why*?
Shivanath : in your ordinary life or mine, if something good we want can't happen, there's a limit somewhere...
  [02:25]
Shivanath : we don't have the money, or the right training, or the class is on the wrong side of town on the wrong night, or they just sold the last one and it's back ordered...
Shivanath : our ability to get what we want is limited by stuff like that in many cases
Sitanath  : and?
Shivanath : Amma or Goraknath's current form's desire for people to be happy clearly isn't limited by those kinds of constraints
Shivanath : but we're busting out ass, working many times harder than our peers on at least three or four more levels, and life is still fucking difficult
Shivanath : even though we're spared enormous trouble
Shivanath : we're not spared *ALL* trouble
Shivanath : yet it seems that's what they'd want, doesn't it?
Shivanath : there's some kind of paradox
Shivanath : a somewhat more evolved version of
Shivanath : "Can god make an object so heavy god can't lift it?"
Sitanath  : is happiness necessarily what's good for us?
Sitanath  : i mean.....
Sitanath  : hmm.
Shivanath : heh
Shivanath : yeah
  [02:30]
Shivanath : it *sounds* like a shallow question, and it is.
Shivanath : but after a few years of serious work
Shivanath : it's an *important* shallow question :-)!
Sitanath  : oh, believe me....
Sitanath  : *grin*
Shivanath : What's the limit on divine action?
Shivanath : Is it free will?
Shivanath : Is it that we're only seeing a tiny snip of time, so they're doing what's best *over*eternity* and that turns out to be a lot of hard work now, and a lot of cool stuff *much*, *much* later - either decades or lifetimes?
Sitanath  : sometimes it seems like our own readiness and capacity to receive it.
Shivanath : Yeah, totally.
Shivanath : That always seems like the limit...
Shivanath : but then, why don't they just magically redefine us to be more ready, like redefining the pot of jam?
Shivanath : You know?
Shivanath : I don't care - take it away!
Sitanath  : heh
Shivanath : If my "identity" is limiting how much they can help me, or whatever, I'm absolutely willing to have whatever that bottleneck is cleared.
Sitanath  : i wonder also about what we're supposed to do in the world? if that kind of magic in one place might detract in some other way....
Sitanath  : i don't know.
Shivanath : yeah
Shivanath : I wonder about that too
Shivanath : the "twilight zone"
Sitanath  : twilight zone?
  [02:35]
Shivanath : does it make the world *weirder*
Shivanath : in some way which causes problems for other people?
Shivanath : You know?
Shivanath : there's no "opposition" - no counterforce - that can stand up to the Divine Will. And yet change seems slow and difficult.
Sitanath  : have you tried asking Goraknath's current form about this one?
Shivanath : God no...
Shivanath : do I look crazy?
Sitanath  : *grin*
Sitanath  : yes.
Sitanath  : ;-)
Shivanath : Ok, no, let's give it a shot?
[Shivanath begins to meditate and make psychic contact with Goraknath]
Shivanath : Oi.
Shivanath : He says that the creation is, in certain places in the universe, essentially out of control
Shivanath : meaning, literally, that it cannot be controlled in total, even by him
Shivanath : it could be *erased* or *broken*
Shivanath : but short of that, it can only be tweaked and redefined
Goraknath : "Even divine beings step into such tar pits gracefully"
  [02:40]
Sitanath  : *grin*
Shivanath : There's some sort of notion of interwoven complexity
Shivanath : like you can darn holes in a blanket
Shivanath : but you can't just pull out the red threads and replace them with green ones
Sitanath  : that's what i thought.
Shivanath : or the Gordian Knot
Shivanath : unless you want to cut it, you start at the ends.
Shivanath : Oh
Shivanath : Oh boy
Shivanath : Now I get it.
Sitanath  : what?
Shivanath : It's Pizza Hut
Sitanath  : ?!?
Shivanath : There might be planets a little like this one all over the galaxy
Shivanath : But none of them have the particularity of PIzza Hut - the sea of forces which produce it - cheap plastic - crass commercialism - garlic - the Italian American cultural context...
Sitanath  : ?
Shivanath : It's attatchment
Shivanath : the reason they don't simply evacuate the human population of earth and redistribute them to sane planets which have gotten over war aeons ago
Sitanath  : attachment? how so?
Shivanath : is that there are things here which people want, which are actually amazing experiences, but which people can't get anywhere else.
Sitanath  : ah
Shivanath : So the trick, he's telling me, is to try and fix the horribly broken stuff
Shivanath : Without killing Pizza Hut.
Shivanath : or Burning Man
Shivanath : or the Cistine Chapel
Shivanath : If He or Amma generated the thought of "all people eat heality food and lose their taste for unhealthy food"
  [02:45]
Shivanath : they could *make*it*work*
Shivanath : but it would be like trying to bleach the blue out of a blanket
Shivanath : Earth without Cheesecake
Sitanath  : *grin*
Shivanath : Wouldn't quite be earth
Shivanath : OMG.
Shivanath : It's like
Shivanath : art restoration
Shivanath : and what I'm asking is basically "why don't we just paint over that and put up a nice NEW mural?"
Shivanath : yes, it'd be faster
Shivanath : and easier
Shivanath : but it's not the point
Sitanath  : exactly.
Shivanath : Oi
Sitanath  : do you have a sense of what is the point?
Shivanath : Ok, next time, I'm heading to a planet which is entirely covered in small islands like Tahiti, lifespan of about a thousand years, nothing to do but laze around in the sun and brew wine from coconuts.
Sitanath  : *grin*
Shivanath : The point seems to be that there are things which make earth very special
Shivanath : but they're embedded in a lot of crap
Sitanath  : ha
Sitanath  : yeah
Shivanath : and search-and-replace style miracle fixes tend to horribly mar the good stuff
Shivanath : or
Shivanath : hrm.
Goraknath : "decontexualize it"
Sitanath  : why is the context important?
Shivanath : Michaleangelo's david wouldn't be what it is if it had been produced by a computer controlled lathe
Shivanath : part of what makes it what it is is that it was produced by raw brute consciousness
Shivanath : the miracle is that it was done by a spirit and hands
  [02:50]
Shivanath : it's getting that much art into the material world which is the Art
Goraknath : "not the object, but the process"
Goraknath : "you like the David, don't cha?"
Goraknath : "want to be in a place where any school kid can produce one by pure thought?"
Goraknath : "what makes it special is that it was done here, where it is hard. the object itself is nothing, a rock. But Michalangelo's consciousness is everything, a jewel cutting against self-chosen limits."
Sitanath  : though (devil's advocate).....if everyone/thing is enlightened/realized/g-d....why does that matter?
Shivanath : Art.
Sitanath  : ?
Shivanath : People like looking at the pretty planets.
Shivanath : make some worlds.
Shivanath : make some beings to enjoy them.
Shivanath : listen to the user feedback to improve the show.
Shivanath : SimGod.
Sitanath  : !!!
Shivanath : Hey, that's textbook Vedic hinduism right there.
  [02:55]
Shivanath : Just updated with modern metaphors.
Sitanath  : so, even if we're all enlightened, the lila continues...
Shivanath : The whole "universe sprouting like a lotus from the navel of bramah" thing...
Shivanath : He's only got one comment on that.
Sitanath  : ?
Goraknath shows a picture of Almora Baba here. He appears as an unnaturally gorgeous young man of around 25 wearing a turban and a leopard skin jacket. He looks like sex on legs.
Sitanath  : *laughing hysterically!!!!*
Sitanath  : HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!! *grin*
Shivanath : :-) :-) :-) :-)
Shivanath : the er... man... has a point
Sitanath  : that was so perfect!!!!
Sitanath  : ;-)
Shivanath : LOL
Sitanath  : is there a reason, though?
Shivanath : yeah, I've got to admit
Sitanath  : why this is so?
Shivanath : that's completely perfect
Shivanath : Well, as he says
Sitanath  : you might even say....PICTURE perfect! ;-)
Sitanath  : (couldn't resist!)
Goraknath : "I took that body because people enjoy it."
Goraknath : "If you were all knowing all powerful all seeing all being all knowing to the point where all futures were open to you, what would you choose?"
Sitanath  : but i mean.....why is the lotus continually sprouting from the navel of brahman?
Goraknath : "I chose to have a good time. to party in the creation, to teach yoga to the kids, to play in the sun on beaches as an anonymous surfer, to fly in the clouds as a condor, to grow in the grove as a tree."
Sitanath  : *grin*
Goraknath : "But many others choose simply not to exist, to fade into the infinite bliss/desire/wholeness of the uncreation, to serve as raw material for other's dreams."
Goraknath : "The greatest creations induce forgetting. Masks so perfect they hide god completely, leaving only Shiva or Amma."
  [03:00]
Goraknath : "Or Frank or Harry or George."
Sitanath  : !!!
Sitanath  : =)
Goraknath : "The real reason we do not simply redefine you to be happy is that you already are, and wear this mask because you choose to. It's none of our business."
Sitanath  : ha!
Goraknath : "what do you think it means when we say that 'we are inside every person' - the Atman inside me, or Ammachi my 'sister' is exactly as the Atman inside of you or Shivanath."
Goraknath : "you have exactly the same powers and choices we have"
Goraknath : "but we remained awake outside of the game, while you played it endlessly."
Goraknath : "and little children will endlessly cry 'almost finished' when they are no such thing, so you only know the game is over when they come inside."
Goraknath : "We come when we hear crying, great suffering or torture - as a mother knows the difference between a hide-and-seek yell and a dog-bit-john yell. But we don't interfere in the games, and they are all games, apart from a few out of control worlds and even on those, only a few out of control corners."
Goraknath : "gods business is not to patrol god, not to control god, but to simply observe and enjoy."
Goraknath : "we enjoy the company of our peers and equals greatly, and voyage through the universe for our own pleasure."
Goraknath : "and those who have finished the game may choose to join us, or play again, or dissolve."
  [03:05]
Sitanath  : why does the game arise?
Shivanath : Hooo boy.
Shivanath : Hang on a second.
Shivanath : Ok.
Goraknath : "The game arises out of many, many possible activities for God."
Goraknath : "Contemplation, meditation, silent pondering of the void, sex, etc. all produce very little form and little illusion of time or space."
Goraknath : "The Game of Life, this part of reality where there is breeding and life and death and experience, where things matter and beings forget, it is very dense, very hard, very durable. Once it arises, beings are drawn to it because it is so different from the uncreated state or 'seed consciousness' - the awareness of the individuated Atman without a being or a body to experience matter/time through."
Goraknath : "Many beings look at Life and simply slide straight by it."
Goraknath : "Others play and play and play and play until Braman itself reabsorbs the entire playing field."
Goraknath : "But this is an aesthetic, not a moral preference."
Goraknath : "No soul is bound here. but the rules of the game strongly suggest that players should complete a round before leaving, for the benefit of the other players."
  [03:10]
Goraknath : "Otherwise positive karmas accumulate in the system, gradually causing the illusion of matter and material being to fade out, as it did at the end of the Mahabarata when all parties involved simply swam into a river of light never to return."
Goraknath : "Mass readiness to exit occurs at great crescendos, but otherwise beings typically while away their time in very pleasant places, paradise planets of the upper astral realms."
Goraknath : "Hard matter, like your conception of Earth (which actually contains many planes, of which yours is one of the lower material ones) is like hard drugs. A game for the young and the strong and the brave, with horrific casualties. But how do you stop a brave young girl from doing methamphtamines in a biker bar?"
Sitanath  : !!!
Goraknath : "How can you deny the Soul the Easy Rider experience if it wishes to see the facet of the jewel represented by a physical body, a lot of speed and a large motorbike?"
  [03:15]
Goraknath : "The Atman is indestructible and all else is a child's crayon drawings for it's own amusement. Watch children play and discover how much fun their experiences of monsters are. So comes war, and soldiers, and dragons and other entities - games of Hide and Seek where a player becomes Smaug for the other player's Hobbits."
Shivanath : (yes, he's using metaphors easy to find in my brain. sorry.)
Goraknath : "There is no sense of non-equal in the creation as we understand it."
Goraknath : "Any more than than an actor's shoe size is changed by the roles they have played on the screen. The Atman is unaffected by the experiences of this great game."
Goraknath : "But it sucks, you say!"
Goraknath : "Argh, ow, stop eating my leg!'
Goraknath : "But *there*is*no*leg*"
Goraknath : "From an outsider's perspective it seems as curious and quaint as somebody sitting over a computer game sobbing for the fate of their space invader."
Goraknath : "'You guys are nuts' is basically how we view it."
  [03:20]
Sitanath  : do we know before we enter that we'll forget who we are? and is the forgetting of importance to sustain the game? is there a way to truly remember who we are *and* stay in the game?
Goraknath : "Those of us who re-enter the creation from time to time to perform housekeeping experiences for the other players are gods. Outside and above Karma, beyond the system. But we do not create and destroy at will because we are here to improve the game, not to end it. Players who are done can leave at any time, and exits are clearly marked - anybody, at any time, can choose incarnation on a series of planets which will rapidly result in their reaching 'Enlightenment' - the full experience of Atman is Braman. Yukteswaraji, for example, has an open offer to the entire earth which is still extant, and available to any who have heard of his disciple Yogananda's book."
Goraknath : "In short - yes, you yourself have entered the game, partially (partially!!!) forgotten your true nature, in the manner of a mother playing along with her children so as not to disturb them so much as she retrieves chocolate-cake-covered plates from their play area. By pretending to be a Cowboy or an Indian as she passes through their games are undisturbed apart from necessary maintenance functions. This is the nature of most of the Divine Servants - souls who have realized Atman, but not Atman = Braman."
  [03:25]
Goraknath : "To realize Atman is to know you are god, immortal, indestructible. To realize Braman is to know that all is god. To know Atman = Braman is to realize that you are alone in a perfect universe, a point of light reflected back in infinite mirrors."
Sitanath  : why do we cling to the illusion when we know it's not real?
Goraknath : "Because it is better than 'reality'"
Goraknath : "Reality is limitless potential. We realize parts of that potential to create 'Maya'"
Goraknath : "There is no such thing as salt or sweet or hard. Until I made it, there was no Yoga."
Goraknath : "Are paints more beautiful tidy in their tubes? Or as an image of god?"
Sitanath  : and how do we get to atman = brahman?
Goraknath : "Even the smallest being makes a murti of it's lfe."
Goraknath : "How is not the relevant question - only *why*?"
Goraknath : "Are you done with this game? As a player, yes. But as a helper... as an assistant to the Divine Mother, as a shadow of her power and form, have you done all you came to do?"
Goraknath : "Furthermore, is there no joy or triumph left in your soul? One day, do you want to be the one in the chair, radiating life to a million beings because it gives you joy?"
Goraknath : "Or do you want to go home now?"
  [03:30]
Goraknath : "'This world sucks'"
Goraknath : "'Does not!'"
Goraknath : "'Does too!'"
Goraknath : "'Well, would it suck if there was enough to eat, peace everywhere and an end to all disease?'"
Goraknath : "'Hell no! That would rock!'"
Goraknath : "We really have conversations like these at the other level."
Goraknath : "When we feel like it, it is our pleasure to come to worlds like this and hand out gifts."
Goraknath : "Always mindful of the planetary balance, and the right of beings to enjoy the creation as they wish, even the stupid and ugly ones."
Goraknath : "Nobody has to be prey more than once. Once, you may have to do it simply so that you have had the experience and 'know' rather than 'guessing' what it is like. But after that, the Internal Atman can guide the soul in perfect safety."
Sitanath  : (are you there?)
Shivanath : (heh)
Shivanath : (yeah kinda - he's working on my body also)
Shivanath : (I'll send you a log afterwards just in case we missed anything)
Goraknath : "The point of the game is that people get the experiences they want."
Goraknath : "And the 'rules of the game' are agreements between beings about things like money, sex, power, keeping score, which siddhis are manifestable on which planes and so on. Those rules are immutable and incontestable by democratic assent."
  [03:35]
Goraknath : "This is a paradise world. Do not come here and make war."
Goraknath : "So the bodies on that world will literally not sustain the war energy. The binding agreements of incarnation prevent it."
Goraknath : "Such worlds are neither hard to find nor to enter."
Goraknath : "There are 'elitist swine' worlds where centuries of art and training are required to enter. 'Nobody may come into this theater who has not memorized Beethoven's entire works and can perform them to orchestral concert standards on any instrument in an 1850s orchestra."
Goraknath : "But who wants to play that game, other than the kind of people who choose it? Life is the same on all levels, the little quirks of a personality can, in the wider scheme of things, collect with many similar souls to create almost any kind of rarified or specialized experiences."
Goraknath : "The 'Material Earth World' you are kind of in right now is a 'bad place' - a shithole corner in bad need of fixing. You are part of a work crew. I and Amma and other beings are 'Foremen' who direct the labor to turn it from a horror into a pleasant garden. It will take 200 years, after which you may do as you please here."
  [03:40]
Goraknath : "The Journey will not be easy, but the time is short and the tasks manageable. A few lifetimes of effort for endless centuries of margaritas and sunshine."
Goraknath : "Understand this. Gods enjoy the same pleasures as mortals. They do not labor, they do not argue, they fight for fun. The create offspring as art, rather than because their bodies drive them to it, and they do not wish ill on any being. The 'Burning Man' aesthetic of 'nothing is forbidden, but you could make us happier by doing that somewhere else' is very close to How The WORLD (universe) works."
Goraknath : "Enlightenment is a pipe dream of mortals."
Goraknath : "It exists but is not what almost anybody wants. Those who do want it proceed smoothly and directly on the indicated paths."
Goraknath : "But there are games around this 'Absolute Goal'. These games are lotteries."
Goraknath : "An Improbably Huge Good Karma is not the same as enlightenment. Enlightenment is simply the awareness of yourself as the Atman."
Goraknath : "All else is decided past that level and need concern nobody who has not attained that awareness."
Goraknath : "Atman awareness is not hard to master."
  [03:45]
Goraknath : "But you must understand that you have mastered it endless times and the process is as natural to you as breathing. Lose the awareness, step into the games of the world, pick up the dishes from the birthday party for your children, slip into the kitchen, restore the Atman awareness, do the dishes. Then go out and watch the kids play from the next room, enjoying the pleasure you have enabled."
Goraknath : "A perfect family life is much of the God's own pleasure."
Goraknath : "Look at Ganesh or the other Children of the Gods. This is what we do for fun."
Goraknath : "Even the child must be understood to be two things: a body, which you create and maintain, and a soul which is god."
Goraknath : "The body of the child is art. It is the creation of a very flexible beautiful old-designed classical Murti: Human Being."
Goraknath : "Can you open to create without fear at a canvas?"

[excerpt ends]

(C) Shivanath 2005ANTI !